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California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing - PE Licensing

California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

California has a convoluted engineering statute that needs fixing. For many years, reasonable legislative initiatives proposed by the PE board, legislators, and other interests have failed due, in large part, to testimony and political influence from factions within the engineering profession in California with interests in maintaining the status quo.

California has a unique engineering licensure system. There are three “practice act” disciplines: civil, mechanical, and electrical. These disciplines are authorized to practice engineering, and their practice is regulated by the California Board for Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists. Civil, mechanical, and electrical engineers can be held accountable for their professional misconduct, and their authority to practice can be suspended or revoked. There are also nine “title act” disciplines: agricultural, chemical, control systems, fire protection, industrial, metallurgical, nuclear, petroleum, and traffic engineering. In these disciplines, the state regulates the use of the title, but not the practice. In the case of misconduct, the board can revoke continued use of the title but cannot preclude continued practice. Title act engineers who commit professional misconduct can continue practicing as long as they do not continue using the title. The engineers from these disciplines often cannot stamp documents, although many local agencies require them to do so. Many fire protection and nuclear engineers, for example, are also licensed as mechanical engineers, but many of the title act engineers are not also licensed in either civil, mechanical, or electrical engineering. To make matters even more complicated, there are two “title authority acts,” for structural and geotechnical engineers, indicating proficiency in those specialties at a higher level than is required for civil engineering licensure.

The plot has thickened. A recent ruling has indicated that any “fixed work” constructed in California—essentially anything not on wheels or that doesn’t fly or float—must be designed by a licensed civil engineer. In the past, the regulated work of any of the title act engineers has needed to be under the responsible charge of a licensed civil, mechanical, or electrical engineer. That is now clarified, and required to be under the responsible charge of a civil engineer. Despite the fact that the California statute requires that licensed civil engineers practice only within their areas of competence, some civil engineers in California have testified to the effect that these provisions require them to practice outside of their areas of competence, and to stamp the work of engineers of other disciplines, which would constitute professional misconduct. Convoluted. And very confusing. This system may have made some manner of political sense when it was adopted many years ago, but it doesn’t make practical sense now. No other states have licensure systems like this.

A bill currently before the California legislature (SB 692) would convert the title acts to practice acts, requiring all professional engineers to practice within their area of competence and allowing the inherent overlap among disciplines that is common in all other states, and that is now allowed in California only for civil engineers. Fixing this is in the public interest and will enhance the protection of the public health and safety. And it is consistent with the manner in which engineering is regulated in every other U.S. jurisdiction. The benefits are as follows:

  1. California will be able to regulate the professional practice of all the engineering disciplines. It cannot currently. That doesn’t make any sense, and it is not in the public interest.
  2. Civil engineers will not feel that they are required by law to assume responsible charge and stamp documents for engineering disciplines outside their area of practice and/or competence.
  3. Engineers with education and experience in the title act disciplines will be able to practice, and to take responsibility for work within their area of expertise.


As an added benefit, fixing this legislation would result in far less confusion, among engineers and the public. It must be very difficult for all concerned in California to understand who can and cannot do what. In other states, it is far simpler. Professional engineers practice within their areas of competence.

Like civil engineers, California title act engineers generally are educated in engineering programs accredited by the Engineering Accreditation Commission (EAC) of ABET. Like civil engineers, California title act engineers are rigorously examined through the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam and the Principles and Practice of Engineering Exam, issued by the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying. In all other states, duly qualified engineers of the disciplines that are California title act disciplines are qualified to practice as professional engineers and are regulated as such.

Legislation to fix this dysfunctional licensure system has been opposed for years by the California Professional Engineers in Government (a public employees’ union of Cal Trans and other public agency employees) and the American Council of Engineering Companies, California, and in recent testimony by a lobbyist representing California members of the American Society of Civil Engineers. They made an attempt to explain their opposition at a recent state senate hearing, which can be viewed on YouTube here.

Some of the opposition testimony is disturbingly misleading and directly contradicted by correct testimony from a group of engineering deans. Much of the opposition, for years, has stemmed from the one time grandfathering of a small number of title act engineers without a PE exam requirement in the 1970s when some of these title act disciplines were initially established. Those small numbers of engineers are now predominantly in their 70s and 80s, and many are not practicing. At this point in time, this issue appears to be a ruse.

It is time for professional engineers in California, and those who retain the services of professional engineers, to speak out and encourage that the licensure system be fixed. Doing so is clearly in the interest of protecting public health and safety in California.

This item has been reviewed and edited by L. Robert Smith, P.E., F.NSPE; Bernard R. Berson, P.E., P.L.S., F.NSPE; and Ken Discenza, P.E., president, California Society of Professional Engineers.

The author is a Fellow of NSPE and ACEC, a Distinguished Member of ASCE, a Board Certified Environmental Engineer, the Chair of the NSPE Licensure and Qualifications for Practice Committee, and a member of the ABET Board of Directors. The opinions expressed herein are his own and do not reflect the views of any of these organizations.

Published Wednesday, January 18, 2012 10:46 AM by Craig Musselman, P.E., F.NSPE
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Comments

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

Marvelous summary!  Re the grandfathering issue, you might expand on that to remind people that ChE, EE, ME & PE were grandfathered ca. 1948 as Titles, EE & ME again in 1968 on their conversion to Practice, and CE in 1929 when the PE Act was first introduced.

               ERM

Wednesday, January 18, 2012 2:27 PM by Emmett R. Miller, P.E., FAIChE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

My name is Bob Katin.  I am a PE, President of CLCPE (an organization of engineering societies, of which CSPE is a member), a Fellow of the Institute (AIChE), and have over 35 years of industrial experience.  I am pleased to have read the article, and want to add a few point of clarification:

1.  There was a comment that you cannot discipline Title Act PE's.  Nonsense!  A title act engineer who commits professional misconduct loses his "PE" and then like any other "Practice Act PE" is unable to find work.

2.  The law has been clarified.  It used to be understood that any non-"Practice Act PE" had to perform his work under the supervision of a "Practice Act PE".  The lawyer for the State Legislature has clarified that.  That understanding was WRONG.  According to the lawyer for the State Legislature, only civil engineers can work on geographically fixed sites (such as chemical plants, petroleum refineries, environmental remediation, biopharm, food, wastewater treatment plants, water treatment plants, nuclear and conventional power plants, etc).  Therefore, ALL engineering and science conducted on a facility that is geographically fixed site must be conducted by a CIVIL ENGINEER.  No non-civil engineer (including ME and EE's with a PE) nor a scientist can conduct work at a geographically fixed site in California.  If they do, they are breaking the State Engineers' Act.  I hope CE PEs carry a lot of errors and omissions insurance.

3. CEs were grandfathered when the State Engineers' Act became law in 1929.  ChEs, Petroleum Engrs, MEs, and EEs were grandfathered when they became Title Act Engineers in 1946. If a ChE had just graduated from college, with no experience, he would be 21 years old in 1946.  If he had been grandfathered with NO experience, that would have been 65 years ago, and he would be 86 years old now.  Many of these engineers that were grandfathered are no longer living, and few, if any are still practicing engineering.

According to State Law, if you got your BS in any engineering discipline but CE, you spent all that money for nothing.  It is illegal to conduct engineering in California unless you are a CE PE.  Ten Deans of California Engineering Schools agree: support SB 692.  

It is time to fix the broken California State Engineers' Act!

Bob Katin, PE

President, CLCPE

Monday, January 23, 2012 5:59 PM by Bob Katin, PE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

I am rather surprised to find out that California has such regulations in place. Seems like a monopoly of some sort. What is defined as "fixed"? A machine that rolls down the road (car) is not "fixed", but a machine that treats air (air conditioner) is "fixed"? Both are mostly designed by MEs. But not in CA it seems. I think that the CA Board needs to take a closer look at the breadth of the technical expertise of the various engineering disciplines. Most of us would be hard-pressed to think of the title act disciplines as inferior.

Tuesday, January 24, 2012 2:24 PM by Edward S. Cankosyan, PE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

We need SB 692 to bring reality back to engineering.  No one engineer has all the experience and knowledge to successfully bring a technical program or project to completion.  The reality is that a team of engineers with different expertise works together in contributing to a successful effort.  Let us not be constrained by lawyers making a narrow interpretation of engineering practice.

As professional engineers, we need to join together to support SB 692.  We should be able to practice in our areas of competence to protect public health, safety and welfare.

Tuesday, January 24, 2012 11:55 PM by Frank Fong, P.E.

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

This has been going on ever since the latest 9 title acts were created.  The huge majority of these individuals were grandfathered in without question. Many that I knew had no experience whatsoever for the title requested.

Then the push came from many of the title act societies to make them all PE's.

The fix should be to eliminate the titles and have them all re-apply for the PE through proper examination.

Simply clean house and start over otherwise the problems will just continue.

Wednesday, January 25, 2012 8:10 PM by John Pollock

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing - Not! Not! Not!

Like the tax law, any changes in engineering law only create ambiguity and uncertainty benefiting only attorneys.  Everyone understands what is required of them generally.  Leave it alone!!!!  More chaos from law changes will help almost no one.

Thursday, January 26, 2012 8:32 AM by Terry D. Welander, P.E.

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

I'd say it needs overhauled.  They do not recognize the discipline of Mining Engineering.  What Civil Engineer wants to certify a mine?  The state exists because of mining.  How bizarre is that?

Thursday, January 26, 2012 4:41 PM by Steve Richards, PE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

I support the bill SB 692 and I have created a Linkedin discussion thread. www.linkedin.com/.../Support-Senate-Bill-SB-692-3995407. Hope you all Engineers out there support this.  Thanks.

Wednesday, February 01, 2012 12:27 AM by Amit Pathak, PE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

I agree that the law is convoluted, and civil engineers are written in through out the State law to serve in a myriad of roles. This would be hard to revise as it is not exclusive solely to those requirements under the engineer's practice act. However, I also believe that to practice on large fixed infrastructure they should have to also be demonstrably competent is performing seismic analysis upon their designs. If you were a CE from another State where there were no State special seismic exams, then you as a CE practicing elsewhere would likely be requried to take the Saturday State-special exams to earn a license in California. If you were a ChE and were grandfathjered in to full practice conforming to the authority of a CE, then you too should also have to take the seismic exam if you want to have the authority to potentially design a facility (treatment columsn, etc) that could pose risk to public health in failing. A failure during a seismic event of a high pressure reaction vessel in a pesticides facility could kill far more people than a failure of many roof trusses for residential home. Being that pesticides are an agricultural product, a poorly designed change to the authority of PEs would allow for agricultural engineers to design such a vessel, and we would not address the question of qualification until after a major event occurred and the vessel failed. At such a point what kind of reaction would you expect from the public on realizing the practice act allowed such to occur with out any demonstration of knowledge of seismic design principles.

Fortunately, most competent ChEs, ME, AgEs and so forth can easily go apply pass their exams and receive a CE. Nearly every ME i have met that is a practicing consultant for a reputable firm also holds a CE license, similarly do many ChEs and a few AgEs. So, I guess one question that arises is, why not just go spend the 2-days and pass the CE exams.

Also of note, a change from title to practice under current law only actually afford ChEs,et.al. the same authority as say a ME, which you have indicated is still limited, even though they are practice protected. CEs authority is written in explicitly in many locations in the law other than just that portion that distinguishes practice protection from title protection. Additionally, there are other agencies that regulate who can stamp under what licenses, for instance ME and EE are practice protected, but SWRCB regulations do not allow them to stamp reports only CEs and RGs. So even is you afford practice protection, that doesn't change other agencies regulations or explicit requirements/restrictions in the law restricting who must stamp or take responsible charge.

So as a solution I might suggest that you mandate a standard testing protocol (right no only CEs spend the extra 8 hours on Saturday for the State special exams, such that all PEs (no-grandfathering) must take the State Special exams and be qualified, along with their discipline specific national exams. Then write a law to revise all past statutes references to civil engineers to include all california licensed professional engineers. However, bear in mind this could mean a lot of currently licensed under title protection would not be licensed in the future, as there are a number of them out there hoping to gain the authority without having to demonstrate competence through examination (I know some CEs who did not want to bother getting a california license because of the State Special exams, and just switched over to being regional or national line marketing directors/PMs from Principals when functioning in California for huge firms).

Thursday, February 02, 2012 6:29 PM by Bret Swain, PE

# re: California Engineering Statute Needs Fixing

Thanks for the good explanation.  I still don't understand, though.  In your examples, in other states, the chemical engineer or the agricultural engineer would design the process, and a structural engineer would design the structure, and a geotechnical engineer would design the foundation, all functioning within their areas of expertise, and all stamping the work within their area of expertise.  It works that way in other states where earthquake risk is prevalent.  I don't understand why some feel that can't work in California.

Craig Musselman

Monday, February 06, 2012 8:15 PM by Craig Musselman

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